Where to draw the line with cousin/cousin reproduction (my opinion)

I’ve been thinking about this a lot. I am not the gate-holder to anyone’s life, but I feel that because I run this blog I have a kind of responsibility to make some kind of statement about where I personally would ‘draw the line’ in my support of cousins-cousin pairings.

In other posts, I try to be as neutral as possible but this post is largely my personal opinion. If someone out there lives differently I won’t demonize them, but I want to express my personal feeling on ‘limitations’ to reproduction. There is more I need to read to understand this topic more in depth but from what I’ve read so far, including from the real life examples I know of, this is the opinion I’ve formulated for myself:

I repeat this all the time: if you ever plan on making kids with your first cousin or any other cousin, you should try your best to go to at least one genetic councilor to get a better understanding of where you stand with regards to your reproductive risks.

I am very much against the custom of arranged marriage (and by that I mean, the custom of pressuring, forcing, or manipulating two people to marry against their will). Here I am talking about mutually consensual love.

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I feel that there does need to be limits to reproduction, even for cousins. I think their risk level is low enough to justify them taking the risk in a single generation, BUT, my opinion is that a “line” should be drawn directly after that first generation has children.

Here are my reasons for thinking this way:

  1. The stigma that is attached to these relationships comes largely from observations made about inbreeding depression – when several generations inbreed, there are a series of consequences that can occur. All you need to do is have a glance at the family tree of King Charles II of Spain. It is downright horrifying what can happen with several generations in a row of inbreeding. This is an inescapable fact.
  2. I say a line should be drawn in terms of reproduction only, and only after the first generation. If someone whose parents are already cousins ends up falling in love with their cousin I think they have every right to be together, however, I don’t think they should have children. If this 2nd generation marries outside the family, this wouldn’t be an issue and they wouldn’t have to worry about the risks rising.
  3. I feel that those consang couples who should have children (if they want to) are cousin couples that do not have incest in the last 4 generations or so in their shared lineage, and an overall healthy family tree (with their own health also being evaluated). This is to ensure that there is enough genetic diversity to afford them the lowest possible risk level in conceiving their own children with each other.
  4. I think the cut off mark needs to be drawn directly after this first generation, because from that point onward the baseline risk for further incestuous relationships begins to increase. Yes it’s possible that there would still be enough genetic diversity left over to allow for healthy kids in this 2nd generation as well, but I feel that the more inbreeding occurs in a single family line, the higher the chances of their children growing up and thinking no harm would be done in making it a ‘tradition.’
  5. I don’t think cousin marriage should ever be a cultural or family ‘custom’. I think that is dangerous and can easily turn into the Charles II family tree a few generations down the line. I think cousin marriage should be an ‘exception’ made for those few people that truly feel their cousin is the only one they want to commit to.
  6. My argument is not based solely on risk level because it’s possible that the risk is still low for a consanguineous couple even at that 2nd generation. I just think that if someone is going to make a gamble like this they should do it under circumstances where the odds are undeniably in their favor, and get out early in the game. This is the best way to keep the good and leave out the bad. The more generations that take the gamble the higher the stakes get, to the point where more is lost than gained.
  7. My uncle had 3 children with his first cousin. They are healthy. But there is also the fact that we do not have incest in our family line as far back as 4 generations on my grandmother’s side (don’t know beyond that) and 2 generations on my grandfather’s side (don’t know beyond that). So when my uncle had kids his risk level would have likely been the best it could be for two first cousins.
  8. I don’t know why no one talks about this issue of generational inbreeding when supporting cousin marriage. For any freedom to be enjoyed there NEEDS to be some kind of limit.
  9. If there is a set pattern like this, where only those cousin couples that don’t have incest in the past 4 generations make kids, and only the ones that truly want to, then we wouldn’t have the inbreeding depression problem – because cousin marriage would happen less often and when it does, it would occur only under the safest conditions.

People often rely on the worst case scenarios to argue against cousin marriage. They point to things like Charles II’s family tree… When ignorant people see this they don’t look any further into genetic possibilities because they get scared off. And who can blame them? Charles II was thought to be one of the most inbred people in the world, with very little diversity in his gene pool. If those who fall in love with their cousins follow a set of limits such as that I mentioned to regulate their risk level and keep it consistently small, then there would be no more murky examples like that for opponents of cousin marriage to use against them. This would not only help drastically reduce health risks for children, but it would leave us with better examples to help fight the stigma long-term.

shipcestuous:

I forgot you had a Song section! would you mind if I resubmit my post?

“Outlaws – Official Audio”

I have been thinking about this song a lot. The one part of the lyrics is what I am stuck on. If this were simply a song about forbidden romance why the allusions to going to jail? This theme of breaking the law is central to the song. not only is the song titles “Outlaws” but a main part of the chorus revolves around this.

You’ll never face a judge without me
You’ll never battle the gavel alone
And if they lock us away
Then I’ll be still here
Proudly waiting to kill more time, with you

Who else could go to jail for being in a relationship? If this theme wasn’t so central to the song I wouldn’t be so insistent about my theory.

It doesn’t take much of a leap to come to this conclusion.  One could simply look at the lyrics literally and have a similar outcome. There are more songs on her album that need more interpretation to fit as well as Outlaws.

And I promised I would never let me hurt anymore
But I tore down my walls
And opened my doors
And made room for one
So, baby, I’m yours
Oh, baby, I’m yours

Much less literal lyrics but the line “I tore down my walls” could be interpreted as I used to reject the idea of being in a relationship with my brother/relative.

There are more direct songs as you have listed here before, but this one is pretty good. Like you said it fits well.

I am fully aware that my opinions on this matter skew my interpretation on things, but with this song I feel its so clear that I had to point it out to the community. People need to feel like there is a community of people who share the same views. You had a comment submitted that explained how antis are driving them out of social networks. This is very upsetting to me, no one should be scared away from a place simply to censor their opinions. Unacceptable. Normalization is happening fast and people need to know they can express themselves in safe places, and your blog is one of those safe places.

We must support each other if we want to make a difference for people hiding in the shadows. The sooner this happens the sooner songs like Outlaws will seem antiquated and backwards, like songs about homophobia seem today.

This is slightly different from the theme of my blog but still connected in the human rights sense. It intrigued me, so I’d like to share on my blog as well. Also if you think about it, it could apply to cousins as well, depending on where in the world you live (if the law would condemn you)

 

fuckyeahbiguys:

Some informative bi humor for the awesome FYBG followers.
If you’re reading this directly from the FYBG page, use the right/left arrows to see more.

Inspiration for the idea: http://manslator.tumblr.com and from a lovely conversation over drinks this weekend with http://bigeorgeivegotit.tumblr.com

(If you share this comic externally, please be sure to attribute FYBG. We’ve already filed several copyright infringement claims on Twitter and Youtube for non-attribution)

Why Your Cousin May NOT Want To Date You

Why Your Cousin May NOT Want To Date You

 

Yes, I know. Strange topic for such a blog as mine.

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But I feel that some things need to be said, however harsh these things may be for some people to hear.

I have been asked for advice by a few people on how to approach their cousin about romantic feelings they were experiencing. This isn’t a specific response to any of those individuals and their situation, but rather a general musing on the topic.

I want to first state that I DO support cousin couples, and their decision to make children, provided they are a stable couple and take all the necessary measures to ensure the odds are largely in their favor for having healthy children, after proper genetic counseling.

I myself have never been involved with any of my cousins, romantically or sexually, nor do I intend to be. When I make suggestions, privately or on the main blog, I make them as an ally, and as someone who can empathize with what it means to ‘love outside the lines.’

Having said that, I will be the first to acknowledge that like any relationship, there is no guarantee that a relationship between two cousins will work out long-term. It really depends on the couple, how deeply they love each other, how well each partner deals with stigma, how much effort each one is willing to put into the relationship… and a certain mysterious element of fate.

Most times I want to be optimistic, but being optimistic while ignoring the negatives would not be helpful to anyone.

Below I want to outline what may be obvious to some of you but which might be useful to remember when dealing with rejection or the possibility of rejection.

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After having talked to some people online, as well as from stories people I know have told me about ‘kissing cousins’ that did not work out, here are some reasons I gathered for why your cousin may NOT want to date you:

1. They may just not be into you. You may not be their ‘type’. This could happen to anyone, related or not.

2. They may be unsure of their own feelings, still discovering what they want in a partner (especially if they are young and new to dating).

3. They may be affected by stigma (both external and internal) to the point where they cannot even hear you confess your feelings without feeling ‘wrong.’

4. They may already be in love with someone else.

5. They may have anxiety about the genetic risks of reproduction for cousins (this one is a recurring factor I’ve noticed in stories of rejection). Often these anxieties are made worse by exaggerated social myths and lack of education.

6. They may be scared of what they might lose (friends, family, job opportunities – if people knew)

7. They may not love you the same way you love them, or on the same level.

8. They may have other issues (trauma) that prevent them from becoming close to anyone, relative or not.

9. They may worry about the future and the complications that may arise from the nature of the relationship (telling their kids, social isolation, discrimination, having to be secretive with certain people, etc)

10. They may have concerns arising from religious beliefs (if these beliefs conflict with their feelings)

11. They may want you in a sexual way but not in an emotional way – enough for a fling or two but nothing lasting.

This is one list, perhaps not exhaustive. There may be a number of other factors that I’ve forgotten or overlooked.

 

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If you look at this list you’d see that while some of these things could change with maturity or education, others cannot or will not.

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I don’t want to undermine the sincerity and weight of unrequited love. But it’s important to remember a relationship can only work if EACH individual involved is on the same page, in their values, their feelings, their expectations, and their commitment.

This is even MORE important in a relationship type that is a minority, with challenges ahead and existing in a world full of ignorance.

Your feelings are legitimate, they are important, they are natural, and you have every right to hold those feelings in your heart. But you have to also set limits to your expectations. You need to ask yourself at what point are you going to attempt to move on?

 

There are men and women out there that are in lasting relationships with their cousins. If you get rejected on the basis of relation, chances are, it’s simply not meant to be for you.

I’m trying to show some tough love here… This is what I leave you with, and I’d say this to anyone who asks me for advice:

Finding a non-related person that would love you regardless of whether or not you are related (hypothetically) can be the same as having that one cousin you desire returning your feelings. Because in either circumstance, what you get is a person that loves you for YOU, enough to overcome boundaries.

Just because it doesn’t work out with your cousin, doesn’t mean you won’t find love. Don’t give up right away, but don’t wait forever either.

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(Pic 2 From: http://emo-hd-wallpapers.blogspot.ca/2014/03/broken-heart-emo-wallpapers-2014-new.html)

 

(Pic 3 From: http://www.picturequotes.com/unrequited-love-quotes)

Wow, that was one interesting argument. I was kind of surprised by what he said at the very end, about incest and homosexuality grossing him out, but I think he was simply expressing that it’s not his kind of thing. What’s important is that even while feeling that way, with nothing to gain from supporting this cause, he still stands up for other people’s rights. If more people tried to think this way or at least attempted to maintain a neutral stance on this subject, life would be a little bit easier for such couples. And the world would become a little bit more humane and tolerant, in general.

Cousin Couples (offspring’s perspective)

I think I’ve mentioned the reddit page before but since then I’ve not been there much, mostly because the discussions there are often fetish-based, and that is not what my blog is about.

However, today I went there to see if I could post something about this blog, when I came across a post that caught my eye… At first it seemed extremely disheartening to read the original poster’s experience. It stirred up some negative feelings in my head… coming from the perspective by which I am used to looking at this type of relationship.

But as I read some of the responses, as well as how the original poster’s reflections evolved as they attempted to understand and process the new information they were getting, I found it to be an interesting and balanced post in many ways.

It helped put some things into perspective for me too, like why the child of a cousin couple might have a hard time accepting their family’s reality. Such a large part of it has to do with the stigma society creates… which wouldn’t exist if more people actually examined this subject up close, with the ability to distinguish between personal distaste vs. facts vs. ideas that are taught to us from a young age rather than occurring naturally in us.

And in the discussion also, the poster mentions the role media representations played in their overall reaction, self-image, and struggle to accept things.

It is an important post to read, no matter from which angle you are coming at this topic (as the couple or the child of such a couple).

Here is the Link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/incest_relationships/comments/4s9xks/trying_to_seek_inner_peace_after_finding_out_my/

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Additional note:

The poster also mentions that her father felt he had made a mistake (as in the pregnancy had been unintended). That revelation also had a negative impact on her process of self-acceptance. I just want say that this is why on this blog I am always referring to relationships that are not only consensual but built on deep mutual love. Because the more genuine the love between the couple is the less likely they are to regret their decisions.. and the less likely their kids are to feel more pain than others’ ignorance already creates for them.