.One thing that all minorities have in common is that there is a myth attached to them. No matter how high they rise in society or how low they are placed in a hierarchy, every minority carries some kind of myth, which acts as a source of stigma.
.One myth may seem worse than another, but no myth should ever be a reason to dismiss someone. When exposure to something is low, there is a lot more room to make up ugly things in place of facts.
.Caring about human rights means acknowledging that myths are not facts. It means to think about the reality that minorities often don’t have platforms from which to speak their truth, which leaves only the myths circulating in place of authentic voices.
I just wanted to explain the reason I focus on reproduction a lot on this blog. It’s not because I am trying to push it on you. It’s because it’s the area where most stigma arises from, the area most people don’t know much about. Because of ignorance surrounding the topic of reproduction, straight cousin couples have the most amount of stigma placed on them. So that’s why I like to address it from that angle.
Reproduction is definitely not for everyone, for various reasons. But I hope that the information I link to and share is of use to you, whether you are just trying to learn more, or in the process of deciding if you want to have a family.
I haven’t come across same-sex cousin couples info yet but if I do I will post here. Please feel welcome to submit an Ask or Share a Story if you are with your same-sex cousin.
I think I’ve mentioned the reddit page before but since then I’ve not been there much, mostly because the discussions there are often fetish-based, and that is not what my blog is about.
However, today I went there to see if I could post something about this blog, when I came across a post that caught my eye… At first it seemed extremely disheartening to read the original poster’s experience. It stirred up some negative feelings in my head… coming from the perspective by which I am used to looking at this type of relationship.
But as I read some of the responses, as well as how the original poster’s reflections evolved as they attempted to understand and process the new information they were getting, I found it to be an interesting and balanced post in many ways.
It helped put some things into perspective for me too, like why the child of a cousin couple might have a hard time accepting their family’s reality. Such a large part of it has to do with the stigma society creates… which wouldn’t exist if more people actually examined this subject up close, with the ability to distinguish between personal distaste vs. facts vs. ideas that are taught to us from a young age rather than occurring naturally in us.
And in the discussion also, the poster mentions the role media representations played in their overall reaction, self-image, and struggle to accept things.
It is an important post to read, no matter from which angle you are coming at this topic (as the couple or the child of such a couple).
The poster also mentions that her father felt he had made a mistake (as in the pregnancy had been unintended). That revelation also had a negative impact on her process of self-acceptance. I just want say that this is why on this blog I am always referring to relationships that are not only consensual but built on deep mutual love. Because the more genuine the love between the couple is the less likely they are to regret their decisions.. and the less likely their kids are to feel more pain than others’ ignorance already creates for them.
Okay, first of all, I am indeed queer. I prefer the term because it is more inclusive than gay or lesbian. I am in no way phobic of any queer identity. Secondly, I am an actual survivor of non-consensual incest but the fact is that I am a survivor of abuse and the incest part was incidental. Just because some incest is abuse does not mean that all of it is.Many people say the same things about non-straight people that you are saying about people who are involved in consensual incest. Finally, this is MY blog and I will post whatever I want on it. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out, sweetheart.
Hey samdeangirl84, I just wanted to throw in my support as well. 🙂 You are an even better person for having come out of your negative experience and not let it colour your view of other people’s (very different) experiences with incest. It seems a lot of the people that use anti-incest arguments only choose to see what they want to see. e.g. They refer to the most pessimistic of scientific evidence and completely ignore the positives so that their arguments are often very biased. They compare it to things that are so far from mutual human relations and consent (some person said it’s like ‘eating rotten meat’) as part of stirring up more impulsive feelings of disgust in others. And then there’s this need to bring in others to ‘support’ their views (with more biased ‘evidence’ and a whole bunch of generalizations), largely fueled by strong personal aversions to something that they themselves wouldn’t like to do. They try to make it seem like they’re doing a social service, but really they are trying to repress others the way they’ve been repressed so they don’t have to challenge their own worldview. I mean how intelligent can an intelligent argument against incest be if the people making it are choosing to completely ignore the fact that there are two sides to everything?
And lastly, if anyone can compare consensual incest to the queer experience without being “homophobic” it would be a queer person. Do people seriously think a proud queer person would actively go out of their way to undermine LBGT rights for any reason?
We care about gay rights as much as any other queer person or ally. We just choose not to be selfish while fighting for our rights.
I think many people these days are actually more open to the idea of online dating. But I wanted to share my thoughts anyway because I think there still are some negative attitudes surrounding this method of finding love that don’t really have much reason to back them.
I’m sure you’ve encountered it at one point or other, but there’s this view some seem to hold that online dating is something people turn to when they’ve run out of options in the “real world” or when they are in the older age range with fewer singles available to date. A lot of the time those who criticize are people who have been lucky enough to find their partners without having had to look far. To them, looking for love on the Internet may seem impersonal and strange.
Online dating doesn’t always translate to Long-distance relationship. That’s a whole other kind of experience. What I’m referring to here is finding people online that live close to your area, then asking them out and meeting in real life to begin a relationship shortly afterwards.
There are many reasons why a person would not only use this method, but would prefer it over more traditional ones, including many young people.
Here are some reasons why I believe people may look online for love:
Social Anxiety: Some people just don’t have an abundance of social skills that would allow them to flirt freely with potential partners face-to-face in their day to day lives. If they struggle with social anxiety, they would be experiencing a difficult enough time just making friends.Getting out of their shell to look for something more than friendship may be an agonizing process. Looking online would allow them to communicate with far less anxiety and thus be better prepared for the eventual face-to-face meeting. If you’re looking into online dating for this reason, chances are you’ll find others like yourself with whom you’d feel more comfortable interacting, since they too might know what it feels like to be shy.
No one around is compatible with you:
A person may join a dating site because they cannot find someone in their immediate surroundings that they feel they are compatible with. This person may have little-to-no social anxiety issues. If they don’t, chances are they’ve already tried and possibly exhausted the traditional methods of looking for love (e.g. meeting at an event and giving someone a number, going on blind dates, getting to know someone through mutual friends, etc).
These people may be criticized for turning to online dating because they don’t seem like the ‘type’ of person typically associated with online dating. You might’ve had that one friend who is attractive and sociable with many admirers buzzing around them, and been shocked to hear that not only were they still single, but that they had joined an online dating site… If social skills come easy to them, people might wonder what might be wrong with them (do they think no one is good enough for them? Do they have other personality issues that make them undesirable to their existing admirers?) Why else would a ‘social butterfly’ need to turn to cyberspace to find someone?
One possibility, however, could be that they’ve tried other avenues already, and that the ‘old fashioned’ ways just haven’t worked out for them… Usually because the people they’ve met in “real life” weren’t right for them.
Many people would agree that compatibility is vital to maintaining a healthy relationship. So if you can’t find it with the people around you, what’s wrong with looking online?
No time for looking around: If you’ve got an inflexible and loaded work schedule, you probably wouldn’t have spare time to attend events or go to clubs or participate in any other social event that is likely to find you a catch. In this scenario too, online dating would make a great alternative – both convenient and far less stressful. You could always go online for short spurts of time at the end of a long work day, and continue your search without additional strain on your energy. It would take less time to date the right person once you find them than it might to physically go out looking for them in a chance encounter.
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You’re Gay! (or Trans or Bi):
This is not the least of the reasons why some would turn to online dating, especially young people. It can be a pain to always wonder who’s straight and who’s gay if you’re looking for a same-sex partner, or who would accept your Trans or genderqueer identity. Although Pride Parade time would offer its own abundance of opportunities, for the rest of the year, online dating sites could provide a much easier method of discovering a match without having to investigate who’s gay or lesbian or bi or trans, because it’ll be right there on their profiles.
And for you, I recommend: Plenty of Fish, now called http://www.pof.com/ <-this is a free and great site, especially for LGBTQ-identified people! For some reason, there’s a lot of them on there… If it’s still the way it was 3 years ago when I first came across it, it would be a good start for anyone who wants to try finding a date online. You should be able to indicate your sexual orientation on your profile, as well as what kind of relationship you’re looking for (serious, casual, long-term, monogamous, etc). This site is also more active than many others and the profiles on it are more up-to-date.
Also check out this article that gives a brief overview of The Best Online Dating Websites for Gay Men. Some of the sites require paid memberships to use, but others are either free or offer a free account with limits.
You have unusual or very specific sexual preferences: And by unusual, I just mean…different. e.g. You may want to look for people that are into bdsm, or interracial relationships, or someone sharing an interest in a kind of lifestyle that you don’t feel comfortable talking about with just anyone. An online platform would allow you to be open about it, without the awkwardness of having to tell everyone you know what you’re into.
These are just a few among many reasons people may choose to use online dating sites. Depending on your circumstances and preferences, Online Dating can be a more practical and effective method of finding love than traditional ones.
QUOTES From Other Sources
“The way a dating site works ensures [you] get access to the kind of information that probably wouldn’t be discussed on a first date – like whether they want a family, their religion and so on […]” (Quote From This Article)
“The growing number of marriages and long-term relationships formed as a result of single people using online dating sites is a modern day phenomena.” (Quote From This Article)
“One interviewee felt online dating sites helped him to break out of close-knit social or sexual circles to find new people. Others from smaller urban centres felt online sites helped them to find inroads into the gay community in a larger city that might otherwise seem daunting.” (Quote From Gay Men’s Health Article)
“No matter what dating website or service you try, you should always exercise caution. Don’t give out personal details until you know the other person. If and when you arrange to meet an online match, pick a busy, public place.” (Quote From Article: Why Do People Use Internet Dating?)
And finally, it’s ALL Real Life! The Internet just offers an extra set of options you may not have in your immediate surroundings. People that never would’ve met the usual way could end up meeting online.
I’m definitely a believer in the usefulness of online dating since I met my girlfriend of 3 years through plentyoffish.com. I am an extremely picky person, and if I hadn’t tried online dating and found this specific girl, I’m sure I’d still be single right now… And I know an interracial, straight couple who also met on that same site around same time as me and my partner (they’re still together, and very much in love).
I think a lot of the stigma around online dating also comes from a general mistrust of the Internet. If you don’t personally want to use it, that’s one thing. But please don’t judge those who do. As I’ve outlined above, they have their reasons.
Online dating is not an alternative to ‘reality’. It works like a bridge to extend the boundaries of your reality. In the end, any date you find online is still very much a person – not a bunch of pixels on a screen or an imaginary lover.
If you’re looking to try out an online dating site, this article might me of some use to you:
Trust me, I know exactly how you feel. Internet comments are our enemy. I get really disheartened whenever I see them, because it makes me wonder how we can win against such a hateful mass of people.
Thank you, thefinalmanifesto. It makes me feel a little better knowing I’m not alone in this. I usually avoid places I feel are made for restless people to do nothing but ridicule things they don’t understand. But I checked out this site because I couldn’t believe their ‘mission’…to keep library books out of the reach of the public because they don’t think the content is ‘appropriate’… trying to control people’s access to information. Just another way of controlling their minds. And to call something ‘awful’ because they don’t personally like its material or subject theme… The quality of a book shouldn’t be determined by someone’s emotional reaction. Especially a book that simply seeks to present new findings and facts, REALITY in place of destructive myths. That’s a good thing. If they don’t like it all they have to do is avoid it, but to deny other people’s rights to access this information is downright oppressive and only suggests by extension that discrimination against minorities is acceptable.
(This is an old post, first posted on Tumblr in August 2014)
I began writing a piece on this topic earlier but I had to abandon it because the more I wrote, the more I realized what a complex topic it really is. The only part of the abandoned blog that I would repeat here is this: there is no easy answer.
The moment you begin to think about who should or shouldn’t have kids, when is the right time, how it should be accomplished, etc, you find yourself mired in a tangle of inconsistent rules and incomplete answers that are often only a reflection of your own (very personal) worldview. No matter how objectively you try to present the statement “you shouldn’t have children” to a consanguinamorous couple, no matter how hard you try to justify it on the basis of potential health risks, it still doesn’t change the fact that the issue is so much more complicated than one that could be brushed aside with a simple, impulsively uttered phrase.
✺
For information specific to cousin couple reproduction: have a glance at this blog I wrote about genetics.
♢ The Risks ♢
Much of the opposition towards consanguineous relationships is often based on a belief that the results of such unions would be “harmful to children.” If you’ve done your research you would know that this belief is not entirely without basis. There are genetic risks involved in making children with a blood-relation. However, these risks are often exaggerated in the eyes of people who seem to focus mostly on the negatives – or used as an excuse to halt themselves from exploring consanguinamory in depth. If there really were dramatic and frequent health problems, I doubt cousin marriage would be such a widespread practice. In fact, the chances of a cousin couple having a child with genetic defects are not much higher than those for non-related couples.
There is, however, a heightened risk factor if there are several generations of cousin marriages in either partner’s direct lineage (this is why genetic counselling examines at least 4 generations of your family history). One example of this scenario is Darwin’s family (there were several cousin marriages in both his lineage as well as his wife’s). See article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1270760/How-Charles-Darwins-family-paid-price-inbreeding.html
Although much of the details of Darwin’s family history can be disheartening and alarming, later studies on the subject have maintained that, “recessive or defect-carrying genes in a population may increase or decrease in instances of inbreeding. The frequency of birth defects depends on the availability and effectiveness of healthcare in a population.” (from article by thefinalmanifesto. See “Health of Their Children” Section)
Just a glance at these examples and their conflicting implications is enough to give anyone a headache. Imagine how much more anxiety an actual consanguineous couple would experience when thinking about their odds and planning their future together. With so many different theories and case studies out there, which results do you believe? How do you begin to sort out the information when there are still missing gaps in the puzzle?
♢ The Couple ♢
People are so quick to use the phrases “you shouldn’t have children”, “they’ll be unhealthy”. When all else fails in the attempt to find strong arguments against consanguinamory, people seem to think that pointing out the risk factor is enough to discourage the couple, or to make them (the outsider) feel like they have some kind of special moral compass that the couples lack.
Many don’t pause to think how cruel and hurtful what they are saying may be to those being addressed. Inevitably you’re going to think it. If you are a responsible human being, you are naturally going to be worried about the risks of consanguineous lovers reproducing… Maybe the sense of responsibility you feel would even prevent you from supporting that kind of relationship altogether. Perhaps society has an underlying fear that if they encourage consanguinamory they have to take responsibility (indirectly) for any genetic problems that the offspring of these couples may have.
Yet if people really think this way, then their actions are inconsistent with their thoughts. Because there are many other couples whose love these same people would readily encourage without knowing anything about their genetics beyond what the eye can see. People don’t go around saying ‘don’t have children’ to non-related couples (who may or may not have bad genetics in their bloodlines), so why use it as an obligatory response reserved only for consanguineous partners?
When a non-related couple announce that they are dating or engaged, few would oppose them on the grounds of reproduction. They might oppose them for various other personal reasons (the man is ‘too old’, the woman is ‘too young’, one of them makes less money than the other, one of them has kids from a previous marriage, cultural differences, religious differences, etc). But rarely would someone say anything about making children (to their faces anyway). Even where a couple who had met later in life are concerned (their ages inevitably heightening the risks of reproduction), people might have enough courtesy not to mention the topic of making children to them – whatever their personal opinion on it. Why is it so hard to show the same sensitivity and respect towards consanguineous couples?
♢ Friends and Family ♢
It’s true that there is a considerable difference in the way strangers communicate and the way friends and family communicate with each other. Where a stranger could simply shrug off something that bothers them about someone else’s life as being of no consequence to their own, it might be difficult for a friend to stay silent on the same matter – especially if what they want to say is out of genuine concern for the wellbeing of the couple and potential kids.
So reactions of doubtfulness and hesitation might not always be the projection of someone’s social conditioning. It might be selfless concern, or maybe they are assuming a related couple wouldn’t want to have children anyway, or they are speaking with a lack of in-depth knowledge about the reproductive possibilities for consanguinamorous couples.
Where ever you are coming from, a little empathy would go a long way in figuring out the right thing to say – whether you’re approaching the issue as a friend, a concerned family member, or stranger to the couple. Have you ever had to go through life with a certain unalterable condition or reputation? For example, if you were always shorter than others your age, you might’ve heard these things – “you’re so tiny!” “girls don’t go for short guys” “try shopping in the kids’ section” – and other such redundant comments a million times. You’ve probably heard people point out the obvious SO often that you’ve become numb to it, but it still doesn’t quite cease to hurt.
It’s natural for people to want children with the person they love. Many gay people still want kids, so why not related couples? if they are responsible people, they already know what they are getting into. It would be difficult enough for them to overcome their own internal doubts and socially influenced ideas of morality. They would already be struggling with it on their own without needing someone else to point out the obvious. There are going to be risks. They likely already know that. And if they don’t, maybe you can educate them with some real facts, presented sensitively and neutrally, instead of discouraging them with exaggerated myths and your own preferences.
Telling a cousin couple that they shouldn’t have children with each other is in part an extension of the stigma attached to such relationships, and the stigma attached to such relationships is a result of the anxieties around reproduction – an unbroken loop of prejudice. But when you remove all those artificial and subjective boundaries, what’s left is two people with the potential to make a healthy family and have a loving relationship together, just like any other couple (give or take a few advantages and disadvantages, just like any other couple would have).
If you’re going to offer advice or suggestions, offer them something new – factual information to fill the gaps – something productive that’s actually going to help them make this incredibly important decision in life.
A consanguineous couple would already be carrying around internal stigma, arising from a fear of what others would say, anxiety about how their children or grandchildren might react to their relation. If you were a criminal (convicted for rape, murder, child abuse) that would be seriously difficult for the children to understand or accept… whereas finding out their ancestors were engaged in a stigmatized relationship, with mutual consent and for the sake of love, might be a truth they can come around to live with – and even be proud of. Compared to all possible family secrets, Love should be the least difficult thing to justify.
Take out all that self-censoring and socially constructed shame, and it can even be inspiring… Stories of love overcoming social boundaries can be one of the most inspiring things in the world. There’s no reason why consanguineous love can’t be looked on like that. If you raise your children to be open-minded people they should be able to appreciate the deeper implications of your life choices: that you value honesty, free will, being yourself even when the world is trying to make you something you’re not, building a life with the person you love the most and not a 2nd best, etc.
♢ The Future ♢
See here for a little glimpse into the history of oppression of minority groups. The arguments used against consanguinamorous couples are no different than those used to deny many other minorities’ their reproductive rights throughout history.
Quote from article by thefinalmanifesto (See “Health of Their Children” Section): “You’re probably also worried about how the child will deal with the taboo nature of its parents’ relationship. ‘Isn’t it better that a child grow up in a normal family?’ This is the kind of reasoning that punishes all sexual minorities for the bigotry of the majority. Not only do they have to deal with the derision of the masses, but now they have to give up their own children because of that derision? No enlightened person in this day and age would argue that we should take the children of same-sex couples away from them and have them raised in “normal” families. It would be barbarous, and yet there are homophobic reactionaries who argue against same-sex adoption with a similar argument. We should never let the bigotry of others police our families. A child can learn to deal with ostracism, as long as they have a good support network at home, but no child can learn to live without experiencing love. Isn’t it better that this child grows up in an “abnormal” household that loves them dearly, than a “normal” one that doesn’t?”
This is one part of the argument that appears to be overlooked in studies. There is already so little data to work with when considering the possibilities. Something that would add a lot of weight and insight to the dialogues around reproduction is if the children of these couples can come forward and speak for themselves (just talking about how they deal with stigma, how they feel about their parents’ consanguinity, their quality of life, any disadvantages, family life, personal views on relationships, etc). It might help consanguineous couples make an even more informed decision about their own plans for making a family. A good variety of interviews could potentially show that the issue isn’t so black and white and that making children doesn’t automatically lead to regret (either on the part of the children or the parents). It might also help deconstruct the arguments that many make about children being harmed in consanguineous unions.
♢ Internal Stigma ♢
If you’re part of a minority you will be fighting stigma in various levels all throughout your life. Gay people for instance, often struggle with internal homophobia before they come out. Then they have to re-structure for themselves everything they’ve ever been taught about marriage, making a family, finding community, etc. So this process – of discovering one’s true desires – is a life-long struggle for anyone in a minority. It’s a struggle against the oppression from the majority, who push their values and ideals onto everyone uniformly, not accounting for individual differences.
The worst kind of stigma would be the kind that comes from within the minority community itself. I’m not sure how it’s like in the cousin couple community, but I’ve come across others who are more closely related discouraging each other from making biological children with their partners. Perhaps this is due to the heightened risk factor which cousin couples (fortunately) do not have much of (with the exception of those with multiple cousin marriages in their direct lineage), but a large part of it seems to come directly from within.
Just because you’re at one stage of your personal journey doesn’t mean you have all the answers for another person. They may appear to be like you on the surface, but beneath that they could be seeing things from a totally different vantage point. They could’ve overcome some part of the stigma another individual or couple is still struggling with. They could be looking forward to making a family, or being open about the nature of their relationship with friends. No one knows the future and you can’t decide what another person wants or needs just by glancing at the surface. This is all the more reason to be sensitive when having a dialogue on this subject.
Lastly, encouraging a consanguineous couple doesn’t mean you have to take responsibility for everything they do in life. If they’re responsible people, they’d be prepared to take responsibility for their own lives and their children’s lives.
rainbowamory 